Skip to main content

More on Training Paces

A friend has just asked me to further explain the idea behind running your long runs slower than goal marathon pace (GP). I'm certainly no running expert, but I read everything I can get my hands on when it comes to training, and I have yet to come across any training plan or article that says you should run your training runs at GP. I wanted to share some of the good info I have come across and point people in the direction of more info if they want it. I have tons of sources, in no particular order, so here I go...

1. Jack Daniels' VDOT paces. This is what I use to determine my training paces for my weekly track workouts. This workout is the fastest workout I do during the week, and is what is responsible for my speed come race day (i.e. speed comes from shorter, fast workouts, endurance comes from LSD (long slow distance) runs). Using my 5k pr of 24:27, I get a VDOT value of 39.33. With that VDOT, it recommends a long run pace of 10:14, and predicts a marathon time of 3:52 (8:51 pace). Now, that marathon time isn't going to happen, but we can set a baseline of 10:14 as the fastest I should do a long run based on this calculator. Now, if I were to put 4:15 into the calculator as a marathon time, you will see that it recommends a long run training pace of 11:14. (Race pace for a 4:15 marathon is 9:43). So it seems this calculator basically recommends long runs be run around 90 seconds/mile slower than GP. A lot of my marathon-specific speed workouts are 800-2000 repeats completed at threshold pace, or 8:16/1600. Shorter repeats (300-800) are done at I pace, and the shortest repeats (100-200) are done at R pace. McMillian has a similar calculator. For a marathon time of 4:15, it recommends long runs be completed at 30-90 seconds slower than GP, or 9:44-11:14.

2. Using the runworks calculator, the appropriate training pace for a 4:15 marathon for easy/long runs is 10:52 min/mile (60 seconds slower than GP). Faster workouts are recommended to be run anywhere between 7:54 and 9:05 pace.

3. The Veteran Marathon training plan from Runners World.com recommends long runs be completed at 20-50 seconds slower than GP.

4. Here is an interesting article from Runners World which introduces different ideas and theories for what pace you should do your long runs.

5. Pete Pfitzinger has written a very good article describing ideal paces for all types of workouts. Specifically, about long run pacing, it says: "Your long runs should be run 10 to 20 percent slower than your goal marathon race pace. This will ensure that you're running with a similar posture and are using similar muscle patterns as when you run at marathon pace. If you do your long runs much slower than this, then you'll run the risk of not being prepared for the marathon. Slow long runs reinforce poor running style and do a poor job of simulating the demands of the marathon. If you run your long runs too fast, of course, then you'll run the risk of leaving your marathon performance out on your training loops, because you'll be too tired for your other important training sessions. If you use a heart monitor, long run pace should put you in the range of 73 to 83 percent of maximal heart rate, or 65 to 78 percent of your heart rate reserve." This article includes a chart showing what 10 to 20% above GP looks like. For example, if your goal marathon pace is 8:00 min/mile (3:30 marathon), you should run your long runs anywhere between 8:48 and 9:36 pace. I know several people running their long runs in that range who will certainly not pop out a 3:30 marathon.

6. Sean Wade, of the Kenyan Way training program, recommends your long runs be done at 30-45 seconds slower than GP. This is the fastest recommendation of all the information I have read. He also recommends the occasional fast finish long run. As an example, typical long runs for a goal marathon time of 4:15 should be completed at 10:13-10:28 pace per his recommendation. Also, the "biggest" long run recommended is a 22-miler which starts out at 10:13-10:28 pace and ends with 7 miles at GP (9:43).

7. Hal Hidgon is a well known running expert as well, and he describes proper training paces in this article. Here he recommends running your long runs at 45-90 seconds slower than GP.

8. Here is another interesting calculator, from a triathlon website, just for fun if you want to play!

I should add one disclaimer that the race calculators are not always considered accurate. They assume you are adequately trained for each distance. When I raced my 24:27 5k, I had just come off of marathon training, so I was certainly adequately prepared for a race of that distance. However, that calculator says I can run a 3:52 marathon, but that is assuming I am also adequately and similarly trained for that distance, which I, along with most people, am not. To get best use of the calculators to best predict another race, you should use race distances that are similar. For example, a half marathon or 25k race will give you a much more accurate marathon prediction than a 5k race. On the other hand, our track coach at HRTC does recommend you use the shortest distance possible in the VDOT calculators to get the proper training paces for track/speed workouts.

So now, you may be saying to yourself "great, good to know this info...but what am I supposed to actually do about it?" You basically have two options: speed up your weekday miles or slow down your long runs. Most people will fall into the second option, as much as they don't want to admit it. Sorry, but that is just the way it is!

Lastly, none of the above takes in the fabulous Houston heat and humidity most of us are training in. Some of the articles I have read suggest slowing down as much as an additional 30-60 seconds a mile on top of the regular slowdown for weather like ours. So while it seems beyond weird, someone running their long runs at 11:30-12:00 pace in the Houston summer can easily run a 4:15-4:30 marathon in cooler temps.

I hope this helps some people out, if not, it was at least a good exercise for me to go back and read all my bookmarked articles and play with the calculators yet again. Any comments/feedback are definitely welcomed!

Edited to add a link to an article that may have way more detail than most people are interetested in, but it certainly helps you understand the science behind the recommended training paces.

Comments

Anonymous said…
The kenyan Way program also has an allowance for heat and humidity. I am sure the 30-45sec slower than goal marathon pace is in perfect running conditions (50-60 degrees)
try using the heat and humidity adjustments and see what is comes out to
Eric said…
That all sounds like great advise. I've used the Carmichael Training System in the past and the approach is similar.
LoveOfShoes said…
It is nice to find someone else who is as into 'the numbers' and getting their hands on all the info they can! I am currently training for my first marathon and am currently trying to find my 'ideal' long run pace. Thanks for the good info put together all in once place!
Anonymous said…
Kathleen - Something which is often forgotten is that endurance is quite speed-specific. In other words, having the endurance to run 26 miles at 10-minute pace does not mean that one has the necessary endurance to cover a marathon at 8-minute tempo. For this reason, conducting slower-than-goal-pace long runs is a relatively weak way to prepare to run a specific time in the marathon. A runner who completes his/her long runs at 9 minutes per mile is really preparing to run the marathon at that pace - but often hopes to run 7:30 to 8:00, as if by magic. Building up the long run over time, so that it includes more and more miles at goal pace, is a more-logical approach to marathoning, and it works very well in practice.
clea said…
cool, informative post. But I think I have one speed: what ever is comfortable at the moment. And, that ain't always fast.

I am sooo looking forward to having your help in February!
Rainmaker said…
Awesome post full of great links! Thanks!
CoachLiz said…
Lol, now my head is spinning. I work by heart rate and rate of perceived exertion and then i fiddle with the numbers based on heat and humidity. I have been doing a lot of my running at the hottest part of the day and letting the body acclimate to the changes of sweat rate, cooling, and stress.

Now I am noticing that the long runs that I start out at 5:30 in the morning when the temps are only slightly cooler are much more fun. I can run faster at a lower heart rate for a longer period of time.

Again, the Houston heat dictates how hard I go. Today was super hot and my heart rate was getting high at the end of the run. Also, I could not stop sweating even an hour later and after a cold shower. I went through 2 tech shirts this evening. Gads! got to hydrate again...

Popular posts from this blog

Still here. Still infertile.

Sigh.  Here we are again.  We knew all along we would be able to start the process for baby #2 when Sloane was nine months old.  I had said we did not necessarily want kids that close together, but knew just because we started then did not mean we would get pregnant then.  If I had only known how true that is becoming.  Silly us had started having visions of three kids.  The only way we can have three kids is to have things go smoothly, not lose embryos, and not lose time.  Well, so far we have lost an embryo and a lot of time in the quest for our next baby. I breezed through prep for our transfer in early May.  The stress load was so much less than before because I thought we had it figured out.  We had Sloane as a great distraction.  My lining was better than it has ever been before - by far.  Then, the day after Mother's Day, I found out it did not work.  And I was immediately thrown back into the depths of infertility hell....

Into the Donor Egg World We Go

As I sit down to write this, I'm shocked to see February 27, 2022 was the last post I've written about our IVF journey.  In some ways, it seems like so much has happened over the last year, and on the other hand it seems like nothing has happened at all because we are back to square one. I'll provide a quick summary of the last year, but please understand this won't even begin to describe the true roller coaster ride we have been on.  I actually don't think it is even appropriate to call it a roller coaster because that indicates there are some ups.  Our ride has been more like a train ride through hell. After our failed transfer in February, we decided to take a break in March to let my body rest a bit before transferring our next embryo.  During that time, a friend reached out and told me about her friend that hadn't had success here but did at CCRM in Colorado.  At the time it almost felt like a divine intervention, but I now know better.  We spent seven...

We did it!